Interview transcript:

Terry Gerton You have been in public service and in safety net programs for over 33 years. As we come out of this shutdown, it really exposed both the importance and the fragility of these programs. Give me a sense from your experience what you saw, and maybe, what did we learn about these programs in the last 43 days?

Clarence Carter Well, I hope what we learned is the essential nature of the these programs. The first couple of weeks of the shutdown were pretty lukewarm. But as it got to the place where we saw the potential challenges to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, things got serious. And quite frankly, I never thought it would get to the moment where we were not in a position to provide the most basic of the safety net services to the 42 million consumers that are desperately in need of those. I am glad that we were able to ultimately clean that up. But having that, if you would, anvil over the head of individuals that desperately need that most basic support I think showcased the importance of the safety net and of some of the programs we administer.

Terry Gerton You’ve just written a book called “Our Net Has Holes in It.” When you look at these programs, I know you’ve worked in housing assistance, now you’re supporting all kinds of human assistance programs there in Tennessee, what are the most enduring lessons that you want to bring forward about making sure these critical programs work for people?

Clarence Carter Terry, the most I would think enduring message that I have is that we clearly in this nation, we have a desire to help our neighbors that are living in the margins. We spend annually, and this is federal government alone, $1.49 trillion annually in service to vulnerable Americans. My argument, and “Our Net” lays out this argument, that what we have to do is shift our intention, shift our design, and shift our execution. It’s not about us not caring enough. It’s not about us not spending enough. It is about flawed intention, design and execution.

Terry Gerton As you think about those three principles, let’s take design first because that’s the structure that we’re working with.

Clarence Carter That’s right.

Terry Gerton What are the core features that need to be reformed?

Clarence Carter  The first core feature is that all of the 114 means-tested programs are, they were designed singularly to address one aspect of the human condition. And they weren’t designed to work in conjunction with anything else. But many of the consumers that the system serves has multiple challenges that need to be remediated. And the system wasn’t designed to take that kind of comprehensive approach. And so one of the first things that has to happen is the system has got to be reformed so that all of the programs can be enabled to operate as tools in a toolkit, but that can be connected to allow us to take a more comprehensive approach to the issue of human well being, not simply the administration of programs.

Terry Gerton I’m speaking with Clarence Carter. He’s currently the commissioner of human services for the State of Tennessee. Clarence, that’s a huge design issue. I want to talk also about execution because human services programs and assistance are state-federal partnerships. You’ve worked on both sides of that. What are the execution issues there and how can we overcome them?

Clarence Carter Okay, and so Terry, you lay that out perfectly. And the challenge is the states and localities administer the programs and utilize the funding with some state add-on. And the states administer the programs. And so what ends up at the state level is you end up executing the flaws of design of the federal system. And so the state doesn’t have an opportunity to do it differently. They have to administer the rules of the programs as they have been given. And so my life’s work has been a journey to call out the dysfunction of design that begins at the federal level and then works its way all the way down the food chain until it gets to the consumer, who then is quite frankly in a place where they are being served by a system with great intention, but really poor execution and design.

Terry Gerton Alright, so the third portion that you mentioned was intention and you’ve worked across party lines, you’ve worked with leaders of both parties across the partisan lines. One would think that vulnerable assistance would be an important bipartisan issue, but it gets tangled up in politics. How do we separate the value of the programs and the intent of the programs from the politics around the programs?

Clarence Carter Terry, I think that we have to do that by shifting our focus from the politics to the programs. And I feel like, and we lay this out in “Our Net,” it begins with intention. Our intention has to be that we meet our neighbor in their vulnerability with the intention to grow them beyond the vulnerability, not simply provide benefits, goods and services as long as they meet the criterion to be served. And I believe that if we begin with that intention, we can check our partisan weapons at the door and focus on, okay, if it’s our intention to grow people beyond, then how do we architect the system to achieve that objective? We have to begin with this shared vision of understanding that we will always have, every society known to humankind has, that we will always have neighbors amongst us that suffer from some manner of economic, social, developmental vulnerability. And so we have to design an efficient, effective system that understands vulnerability with the intention to grow our citizenry beyond that vulnerability, and success has to be in a system like that. Not that I delivered a benefit, good or service, but that the consumer got healthier for it. We measure right now, we measure outputs. I can tell you, as a administrator of the SNAP program, what I get held accountable for is, did I deliver the SNAP benefit to who was entitled to receive it? Did I deliver it in the right amount? And did I deliver it in the right time frame? Nobody asks me, did that family get to a place where we grew their capacity so that they don’t need it? I get judged on efficiency measures. I think that we need to add to efficiency measures, we need to add human wellbeing metrics, and that that needs to be the true determinant of success.

Terry Gerton Clarence, you’ve laid out a powerful vision there. What would be the top one or two or even three policy priorities that you would put on the table for Congress to help strengthen the safety net and achieve that vision of wellbeing?

Clarence Carter The first would be connectivity. And what I mean by that is that the 114 means-tested programs of the safety net need to be able to be connected so that they become tools in a toolkit to achieve the objective of growing people beyond. So connectivity is important. But before we get to connectivity, we have to begin with a shared vision. And that shared vision, our argument in “Net” is that that shared vision has to be helping individuals achieve the highest degree of freedom possible. And so if we set out with that intention to help individuals achieve the highest degree of freedom possible, and we connect the tools so that those tools can work together, then we can have a system and we measure what counts. We measure human capacity. Those things coming together can create a profoundly different system of public supports.

The post Can our safety net programs survive stress and deliver more than short-term relief? first appeared on Federal News Network.

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